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Subject: Re: "Don't trust draw score" <=Is it true?

Author: Martin Giepmans

Date: 09:12:55 08/10/01

Go up one level in this thread


On August 10, 2001 at 10:30:59, Tony Werten wrote:

>On August 09, 2001 at 06:12:52, Martin Giepmans wrote:
>
>>On August 09, 2001 at 02:39:53, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>
>>>On August 08, 2001 at 19:17:47, Martin Giepmans wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 08, 2001 at 17:18:02, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 08, 2001 at 16:43:39, Martin Giepmans wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, I see your point. Now the question is: is there always pollution?
>>>>>>I think 2 conditions are necessary:
>>>>>>(1) The score (+0.20) is influenced by a drawscore that is based on *external*
>>>>>>repetition.
>>>>>>(There is no problem with the influence of internal repetition)
>>>>>
>>>>>No, this is false.  You can get to the same position at the same depth in the
>>>>>same iteration, and have subsequent moves with different repetition
>>>>>consequences.
>>>>>
>>>>I don't see how this could have a negative effect, if you do not use cutoffs
>>>>based on drawscores from the hashtable.
>>>
>>>Everything I have said in my posts in this thread is an attempt to show that
>>>draw scores that you encounter influence other scores.
>>>
>>>bruce
>>
>>
>>I understand what you are trying to say. Let's illustrate it with a (simplistic)
>>example:
>>Path A: 1. Nf3 Nf6  2. d4  d5
>>Path B: 1. d4  d5   2. Nf3 Nf6
>>Same position (P).
>
>
>Suppose these moves happen a little later in the game.
>
>After whites first move, it could have been a draw in A because of a 50 move
>rule, but not in B.
>
>cheers,
>
>Tony


The positions after 1. Nf3 and 1. d4 are different, so there is no problem if
the one is a draw and the other is not. But sure, the 50-moves rule can give
problems with hashing:
Play 98 reversible halfmoves (no pawnmoves, etc) from position P and you have
a position that is a draw along path B and not along path A ...


cheers,

Martin
>
>>The program first takes path A and discovers that Ng1 is the best move in P
>>(you need a weird static eval for that, but ok), score +0.40.
>>Now the program takes path B. Is Ng1 the best move? No, black plays Ng8
>>and repeats the position after d4 d5. Score 0.00.
>>The best move is, say, Nc3. Score +0.10.
>>
>>I think this proves your point: drawscores influence other (nonzero) scores.
>>However, along path B white has obviously not played the best moves.
>>If white gets 0.10 instead of 0.40 there must be something wrong with either 2.
>>Nf3 or 1. d4 or both.
>>So, my question is: does this influence of drawscores minimax downto the root of
>>the tree? My first thougth was no, my last (thought 31) is: I really don't know
>>...



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