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Subject: Re: Strength of the engine in chess programs

Author: Andrew Dados

Date: 14:17:32 05/21/02

Go up one level in this thread


On May 20, 2002 at 19:39:57, Rolf Tueschen wrote:

>On May 20, 2002 at 19:12:36, Albert Silver wrote:
>
>>On May 20, 2002 at 18:44:33, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>
>>>>It just shows what clods humans can be. Not only did it take 30 years for
>>>>someone to get the idea of ...c6 but it was only because the fantastic idea of
>>>>9...d5! had already been show to them.
>>>
>>>You will say it's circles or a merry-go-round but I will prove you the fallacy
>>>in your perception. BTW I like your contributions more and more. Now, after
>>>having assumed that I had insulted you, what was not the case,
>>
>>I choose not to argue this ad nauseaum, but yes, you did, and on more than one
>>occasion.
>
>Ok. Then it might have been in the hidance. But you never accused me before. You
>stopped to debate many times but never because I had insulted you. At least you
>didn't say so. But if it the case, then I feel sorry. I hope it didn't happen
>last year or now. Perhaps you were insulted when I spoke about certain
>hypotheses. Honestly I always expected that the whole topic wouldn't exist here.
>Why did you never write me email about it? I didn't know that you felt so hurt.
>
>>
>>>you talk this way
>>>about other human beings. Justified or not, this is the question. I say no, not
>>>justified!
>>>
>>>Simply because you miss the most important point in chess. That's why we can't
>>>compare chess with science.
>>>
>>>Why?
>>>
>>>Because other than in science in chess nobody is forced to give away his
>>>secrets. He might wait decades before he opens his books...
>>
>>So when dozens of top players began playing it they had ALL been secretly
>>holding onto ...c6 for 30 years. I say all because if only one player found it,
>>then all others are only copying him. Since it was then played by many players,
>>they must all have been keeping it a secret for some 30 years. Well.... some
>>less since they weren't all 30 years-old yet.
>
>Just consider the different levels of players. Then you differentiate between
>the different preferences of the best players. Then every day has 24 hours. You
>can take for granted that that in the old days only the real top players did
>thourough research. BTW what I read about the famous game of Botvinnik in
>Huebner's commentary, proved even this to be wrong. Without a comp analyses were
>not exactly fun. I have great respect for the study authors. No, chess isn't
>science.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>Your theory that no one serious looked at
>>>>it for 30 years is one I do not believe in.
>>>
>>>Strange because you say that you are teaching chess... not looking but talking.
>>
>>I didn't understand what you meant with looking and not talking.
>
>
>Looking but not talking about the results.
>
>>
>>
>>>>As I said, I contend that had they known nothing about the openings they play,
>>>>there are MANY moves and lines top players would most likely not find on their
>>>>own. They are using and building on the knowledge of others.
>>>
>>>Yes, of course. But your first sentence is false. A GM will find what he wants
>>>to find. In principal!
>>
>>If you really believe that a GM could find all of theory on their own with no
>>prior knowledge then I think you overestimate their ability somewhat. When a
>>brilliant new move or line is discovered, it isn't because no one had seriously
>>analyzed that position before the analyst who discovered it, it is simply
>>because no one had the idea.
>
>Without prior knowledge, but GM? Ok, I would still say, yes, GM are able to do
>it. As I said, it's not as if it were a national task suddenly to find the
>solution of a problem. The MOTIVATION is the biggest factor. Once set on the
>track a GM will find all solutions. Promissed.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>(!)
>>>
>>>Albert, let's stop here, because you won't support computers in human chess
>>>tournaments anyway. Just spend a little thinking about those who can't compete
>>>themselves and who therefore would like that their machines would participate.
>>
>>Ex: "Hi, I can't compete in this 5000 meter race myself, so is it ok if I have
>>my automatic motorbike participate instead? I can set it to not go over 25 km/h
>>if you like..."
>
>No, I think I have understood your thought. You see just the numbers. Know what
>I see in these comps? The precursors of the first artificial race on earth. And
>if you say, but you don't even program, then I say, yes, but isn't this an
>interdisciplinary field, computerchess?
>
>Rolf Tueschen

Just one link:
http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html

-Andrew-

>
>
>
>>
>>                                          Albert
>>
>>>It's always a question of dimensions, so to speak, perhaps I'm too far away in
>>>other dimensions, and therefore some few here think it should be enough. Perhaps
>>>I am too creative which often causes a lot of angst. Sigh.
>>>
>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>>
>>>P.S. I'm happy now.



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