Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 23:40:29 02/06/04
Go up one level in this thread
On February 06, 2004 at 18:51:55, Uri Blass wrote:
>On February 06, 2004 at 15:37:03, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>>On February 06, 2004 at 15:03:49, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On February 06, 2004 at 14:29:30, Thorsten Czub wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 06, 2004 at 12:19:09, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Here is the line of the game that you posted
>>>>>
>>>>>14...Qc7 {-0.30/18} 15. Bxh6 gxh6 {-0.40/15} 16. Qxh6 Rfd8 {-0.54/16}
>>>>>17.Rd3 Nh7 {0.00/17} 18.f4 Bf8 {0.01/18} 19.Rg3+ Kh8 {0.01/18} 20. Qh5 Rab8
>>>>>{0.35/17} 21.f5 exf5 {0.85/16} 22.Rf1 Rd7 {0.84/19} 23.Rxf5 f6 {0.84/18
>>>>>
>>>>>You can see that shredder evaluated the position as 0.54 pawns for itself at
>>>>>move 16 and it is more than 0.30 pawns for itself at move 14.
>>>>
>>>>right. right.
>>>>but it is 18 searches deep !
>>>>
>>>>in move 20 (that is 12 searches away from Qc7 it feels negative, and in move
>>>>21 even morenegative.
>>>>
>>>>how can the program oversee this, when it sees the things different within
>>>>12 plies later.
>>>>
>>>>>I believe that not pruning could not help shredder to avoid Qc7 and I am also
>>>>>not sure if it was the losing error(I suggested 17...Ne8 instead of 17...Nh7).
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>shredder itself changes the score from + into minus within a few moves.
>>>>
>>>>in between there is the fritz-like 0,00.
>>>>
>>>>if shredder itself sees now the weakness, why wasn't it able to see the obvious
>>>>move earlier ? it pruned it away-
>>>>if the move was wrong, why the score dropping ??
>>>
>>>I believe that the following claims are correct:
>>>
>>>1)The move Bxh6 was wrong but shredder blundered later(I suggested 17...Ne8
>>>instead of 17...Nh7)
>>>
>>
>>No,Bxh6 is not wrong. White can at least draw.
>>CS Tal would never accept a draw and lose but that's another story of course.
>>
>>>2)Shredder searched 15.Bxh6 to reduced depth but this is not the reason for
>>>playing 14...Qc7(otherwise shredder could see a drop in the score immediatly
>>>after 15.Bxh6 and it did not happen)
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>There is probably not a single program that can find the _only_ defence 17...Ne8
>>18.Bd3 Bd8 since white can play 19.Nd5.
>>
>>Michael
>
>This is possible only at move 16.
I meant 16...Ne8 17.Bd3 Bd8 of course.
It was some time ago when I took a quick look at it and I recalled the move
number wrong.
>
>I remember that I tried yace and yace could learn a draw score after 17...Nh7
>but when I went back it suggested 17...Ne8 with a positive score.
>
>I am not sure about the result but the idea is 17...Ne8 18.f4 Bf8 19.Rg3+ Bg7
>20.f5 exf5 21.exf5 f6
At move 17 it might be too late. White should not play 20.f5. He should play
20.Rd1 to bring the second rook into the attack of course.
This seems very dangerous for black but 16...Ne8 17.Bd3 Bd8 18.Nd5 Qd7 19.Nf6+
(19.e5 f6) Nxf6 20.e5 dxe5 21.Qg5+ (21.g4 e4) is a perpetual.
Michael
>
>I do not have shredder8 but shredder7.04 can see 0.01 pawns for black at depth
>13 and 0.06 for black at depth 14 and I think that black has better chances than
>the game when black had to give the pawn f6.
>
>
>CSTal2.03 - Shredder8
>[D]r2rn1k1/2q3b1/p1bp1p1Q/1p3P2/8/P1N3R1/1PP1B1PP/1K5R w - - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Shredder 7.04:
>
>22.Rxg7+ Nxg7 23.Qxf6
> µ (-1.33) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00
>22.Rxg7+ Qxg7
> -+ (-1.56) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
>22.Re1
> ± (1.15) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
>22.Re1
> ± (1.15) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
>22.Re1 Qf7
> ± (0.74) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00
>22.Re1 Qf7
> ± (0.74) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00
>22.Re1 Kf8 23.Qe3
> ± (0.99) Depth: 3/12 00:00:00
>22.Re1 Qf7 23.Bh5
> ± (1.02) Depth: 3/12 00:00:00
>22.Re1 Qe7 23.Bc4+ Kf8 24.Nxb5 Bxh6
> ± (0.77) Depth: 4/12 00:00:00
>22.Re1 Qe7 23.Rg4 Qe5
> ± (0.74) Depth: 4/12 00:00:00
>22.Re1 d5 23.Bh5 Qxg3 24.Qh8+ Kxh8
> ² (0.49) Depth: 5/12 00:00:00
>22.Re1 d5 23.Rg4 d4 24.Nd1
> ² (0.45) Depth: 5/14 00:00:00
>22.Re1 d5 23.Rg4 d4 24.Rxg7+ Nxg7 25.Qh7+ Kxh7
> = (0.20) Depth: 6/14 00:00:00 29kN
>22.Re1 d5 23.Qh4 Qe5 24.Rg6 Qxf5 25.Bd3
> = (0.06) Depth: 6/20 00:00:00 61kN
>22.Rd1 d5 23.Qh4 d4 24.Rxd4 Be4
> = (0.07) Depth: 6/20 00:00:00 65kN
>22.Rd1 d5 23.Qh4 Qe5 24.Qh5 Nd6
> = (0.10) Depth: 6/20 00:00:00 68kN
>22.Bf3 Kf8 23.Qg6 Qf7 24.Bxc6 Qa2+ 25.Kxa2
> = (0.11) Depth: 6/20 00:00:01 105kN
>22.Bf3 d5 23.Qg6 b4 24.axb4 Rab8
> = (0.20) Depth: 6/20 00:00:01 115kN
>22.Bf3 d5 23.Qg6 Qf7 24.Qh6 Qc7 25.Qg6 Qf7 26.Qh6 Qc7 27.Qg6
> = (0.00) Depth: 7/20 00:00:01 157kN
>22.Re1 d5 23.Qh4 Qe5 24.Rg6 Qxf5 25.Bd3 Qf4
> = (0.01) Depth: 7/20 00:00:01 164kN
>22.Re1 d5 23.Qh4 d4 24.Na2 Bd5 25.Nb4 Rac8
> = (0.06) Depth: 7/20 00:00:02 200kN
>22.Re1 d5 23.Qh4 d4 24.Na2 Bd5 25.Nb4 Rac8 26.Rg6
> = (0.01) Depth: 8/24 00:00:04 540kN
>22.Bf3 d5 23.Rg4 d4 24.Bxc6 Qxh2 25.Qxh2
> = (0.02) Depth: 8/24 00:00:04 576kN
>22.Bf3 d5 23.Rg4 Qe5 24.Qg6 Rac8 25.Rd1 Kh8 26.Bxd5
> = (0.18) Depth: 8/24 00:00:05 610kN
>22.Bf3 d5 23.Rg4 Qe5 24.Qg6 a5 25.Rh4 b4 26.Qh7+ Kf8 27.axb4 axb4 28.Nxd5
> = (0.09) Depth: 9/24 00:00:07 925kN
>22.Rg4 d5 23.Bd3 Qe5 24.Qg6 Kf8
> = (0.10) Depth: 9/24 00:00:10 1268kN
>22.Rg4 d5 23.Bd3 Qe5 24.Qg6 Rac8 25.Rh4 Kf8 26.Qf7+ Kxf7
> = (0.10) Depth: 9/24 00:00:10 1298kN
>22.Rg4 d5 23.Bf3 Rac8 24.Re1 d4 25.Bxc6 dxc3 26.Rxe8+ Rxe8 27.Qh7+ Kxh7
> = (-0.10) Depth: 10/24 00:00:16 2083kN
>22.Re1 d5 23.Qh4 d4 24.Na2 Rac8 25.Bd3 Bb7 26.Rg6 Qc5 27.Re6
> = (-0.09) Depth: 10/26 00:00:17 2168kN
>22.Re1 d5 23.Qh4 d4 24.Na2 Rac8 25.Bd3 Bb7
> = (-0.05) Depth: 10/28 00:00:20 2559kN
>22.Bf3 d5 23.Qg6 Qf7 24.Qh6 d4 25.Bxc6 Qd5 26.Nxd5
> = (-0.04) Depth: 10/28 00:00:20 2642kN
>22.Bf3 d5 23.Qg6 Qf7 24.Qh6 Qc7 25.Qg6 Qf7 26.Qh6 Qc7 27.Qg6
> = (0.00) Depth: 10/28 00:00:21 2760kN
>22.Qh4 d5 23.Bd3 d4 24.Ne2 Bd5 25.Re1 a5
> = (0.01) Depth: 10/28 00:00:25 3287kN
>22.Qh4 d5 23.Bd3 a5 24.Bxb5 Bxb5 25.Nxb5 Qc4 26.Rxg7+ Nxg7 27.Qh7+ Kxh7
> = (0.01) Depth: 10/28 00:00:26 3451kN
>22.Qh4 d5 23.Bd3 d4 24.Ne2 Qe5 25.Re1 Rac8 26.Rg4 Bd5 27.Nxd4
> = (0.19) Depth: 11/32 00:00:46 5913kN
>22.Qh4 d5 23.Bd3 Rac8 24.Re1 d4 25.Ne2 Qa5 26.Rg6 Bb7 27.Nf4
> = (0.12) Depth: 12/32 00:01:17 9830kN
>22.Qh4 d5 23.Bd3 Nd6 24.Qxf6 Qf7 25.Qe5 Kf8 26.f6 Bxf6
> = (-0.01) Depth: 13/32 00:02:38 20662kN
>22.Qh4 d5 23.Bd3 Rab8 24.Re1 a5 25.Na2 d4 26.Rh3 Bd7 27.Qh5 Bf8
> = (-0.06) Depth: 14/36 00:06:27 50438kN
>
>(Blass, Tel-Aviv 07.02.2004)
>
>
>Uri
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.