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Subject: Re: Chess program improvement project (copy at Winboard::Programming)

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 02:56:44 03/08/06

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On March 08, 2006 at 05:39:24, Tord Romstad wrote:

>On March 07, 2006 at 21:42:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On March 07, 2006 at 16:01:57, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>
>>>Fruit uses late move reductions, and yet the search is perfectly symmetrical.
>>
>>Same number of nodes at same depth in all 4 positions?
>
>No, not even from the initial position, as you can see from my reply to Dann.
>
>>I don't see how he does it, but then again, bitboard programs have different
>>issues.  I have FirstOne() and LastOne().  But if you flip the board
>>horizontally, I can't flip the way those two functions find the first 1 bit,
>>so my moves are generated in a different order.
>
>Even if a program has perfectly symmetrical move ordering (which Fruit
>does not have, by the way), the search will not be symmetrical, because of
>the hash table.  When sufficiently many of the lower order bits of the
>Zobrist keys of two different positions match, they will be stored to the
>same address in the transposition table.  The lower order bits of the
>two corresponding mirrored positions will of course generally not
>resemble each other at all, and the positions will no longer be stored
>to the same address.  This means that the search can never be symmetrical,
>as long as a transposition table is used.
>
>Tord

Not exactly.

It is possible to calculate 2 zobristy keys of 32 bits(one of the position and
one of the symmetrical opposite position) and use the information to have
symmetrical search because the zobrist key of position X will be the same as the
zobrist key of position y that is symmetrical with different side to move.

I do not do it but in theory you van get symmetric search with hash tables.

Uri



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