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Subject: Re: Strength of the engine in chess programs

Author: Rolf Tueschen

Date: 12:37:48 05/20/02

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On May 20, 2002 at 14:59:57, Uri Blass wrote:

>On May 20, 2002 at 14:41:00, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>
>>On May 20, 2002 at 13:56:10, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I do not think that using book is cheating.
>>>I believe that there are also GM's who remember some book moves without
>>>understanding them.
>>
>>Before going to you promissing ideas below we must surely consider this aspect.
>>My comment on it is, that if we are trying to find fair rules in a sport we
>>should not justify something for one side with the exceptional existence of the
>>same on the other side. This question here is the most important IMO. Now, we
>>start directly on GM level, and that is right so. Now, as I repeated often
>>enough, almost all GM of the top, say 50 players or such, have eidetical
>>talents. Otherwise they have no chance to come into the top ranks. Now, this is
>>something you won't read about in chess magazines, simply because the GM won't
>>talk about it, it's their secret if you want, and the journalists don't even
>>know what eidetics really is! Recently I read an interview with Karpov, where
>>this topic was lightly touched after a lost game I think. He said of course he
>>couldn't remember all the lines, and that he had simply forgotten. You see?
>
>I know that humans have weaknesses and they cannot remember every line that they
>learned.
>
>Computers have other weaknesses.
>
>I think that a match when both side can use some books is also a fair match.
>
>A match when the computer has to use the palm hardware is also a fair match.
>
>A match when the computer has not the right to use more than 1 Mbytes memory is
>also a fair match.
>
>Both sides should be defined and have the same rights.
>
>If both sides have the rights to use opening that they remember then I see no
>problem.
>
>
> Now,
>>there is not much we can say. Where the public doesn't know of edetics at all, a
>>GM can easily talk about his memory and its holes. But the experts know better
>>what 'Karpov' means or 'Kasparov', make your choice. That is not having said
>>that these giants will be able to activate their potential power at will and
>>always. Some distraction and the level goes down a bit. Look at Kasparov in
>>Prague.
>>
>>So we take such GM with eidetics and compare him/her? with the computer program.
>>Would you still say, that these are the same or comparable? Of course not,
>>because even the best book doctors I heard of are no GM and are unable to make
>>comparable analyses to a human GM. The GM you mentioned might really play a book
>>line without understanding but he knows when to start his own thinking. Or
>>perhaps he had accepted a silent draw? ;)
>>
>>No, the books in the actual format have a single goal, to get Elo numbers of
>>2500-2600, after imbreding even 2700 and more. Without them they are in my
>>personal view at 2350.
>>
>>(This number 2350 is personal but with a little background, that is never
>>discussed by the critics. As I wrote in the first or second posting above the
>>number is the result _after_ human chessplayers would create a computer related
>>new chess, and that would be only happening after enough money would be reserved
>>for that task.
>
>
>I think that if enough money is going to be reserved for that task the 2350
>human players will learn about chess and become 2500 players.
>
>I believe that most 2350 players can become 2500 players in one year if it is
>really important for them.
>
>The problem is that they know that they cannot live from being 2500 players and
>they prefer not to work hard in order to be 2500.
>
>
> I am not gambling with you when I just choose 2350 to get you in
>>some discussions. I discuss the topic having the standards of computerchess in
>>mind and its destiny. The number is _not_ the actual reality! It's the potential
>>reality.)
>
>Humans have potential to be better players against everyone and not only against
>computers.
>
>Uri


You have my aye in all aspects! Thanks so much. "On both sides" -- that was it!

Rolf Tueschen



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