Author: Dann Corbit
Date: 11:45:36 02/15/04
Go up one level in this thread
On February 15, 2004 at 14:36:56, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On February 15, 2004 at 13:41:42, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On February 15, 2004 at 13:29:16, Dann Corbit wrote: >> >>>On February 15, 2004 at 13:24:54, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>I understood from the winboard forum that Bob considers DanChess as a crafty >>>>clone and the question is what is the definition of a clone. >>>> >>>>I remember from slater's post in this forum that if most of the code is >>>>different you cannot win in court by complaining that it is a clone. >>>> >>>>I understood from Dann's post that only 30% of the code of DanChess is >>>>similiar(that does not mean the same as Crafty). >>>> >>>>Dann Corbit posted in the winboard forum the SEE function of Danchess that is >>>>similiar to Crafty. >>>>I wonder if it is really the main reason that Bob considers Danchess as a clone >>>>or only one of the reasons. >>> >>>There are more reasons that that one routine. Several routines are similar. He >>>also used some ideas from eval that are found only in crafty. For instance, he >>>had a stonewall detection. The only other program I ever saw with stonewall >>>detection was crafty. >>> >>>There is no standard for: >>>"This is a clone" >>>or >>>"This is not a clone" >> >>I believe that there are some standards. >> >>Suppose that a strong program with the same similiarity to Crafty becomes >>commercial and the author does not hide the similiarity and even share the >>similiar code that it has to crafty. >> >>I believe based on your descreption that if Hyatt go to court and sue the >>programmer then it is clear that the court is going to decide against him. >> >>> >>>It is clear to me that if you use ideas from someone else and they challenge you >>>as to cloning, then you may have a big problem to sort it out. >> >>I use alphabeta >>I use null move >> >>What other people can do against me? > > >This is called a "strawman" argument. Nobody is claiming that or arguing from >that perspective. The point here is _source code_. Do you think it ok to >borrow a chapter from a book, change the main character's name, and sell it as >your own? Copyright law does _not_ say it is ok. Nor is it ok to take >thousands of lines of code from Crafty, change a few variable names, and then >call it a new program. > >I think it is great if someone looks at the source, reads the comments, gets >some ideas they like and implement them. Much of the _original_ Crafty design >came right from the "Chess Skill in Man and Machine" book chapter on chess 4.0. >But I copied _no_ source since none was given. Ideas are ok to copy. But _not_ >thousands of lines of source. > >That is the point here, it keeps getting lost in all the minutia... > > > > > >> >> >> >> Therefore, if >>>someone has an idea you want to use, I think the only wise course is to send an >>>email and ask if you can use the idea. >> >>I think that it is absurd. > >I think both of you are absurd here, because you are arguing a point of view >that nobody holds. If you can't see the difference between copying an idea and >copying an actual source program, perhaps there is nothing more to say? I think that it is an honest difference of opinion. I also do see where you are coming from. I also understand your frustration at many of the blatant crafty rip-offs. It makes perfect sense to me for you to put your foot down and holler "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!" But I think Daniel Shawul may be bearing the brunt of the mistakes of others. In any case, we all agree that it was a terrible oversight not to mention the use of crafty ideas in his program. He is doing a complete rewrite to 0x88 (and in fact has already accomplished it). So I think it would be nice to let bygones be bygones and forget the whole matter. I still have great respect for all of the parties involved and I think it would be nice to have everyone forgive all of the others. >>Do I need to ask people if I am allowed to use null move pruning? >>What in case that I think independtly about an idea that other people use in >>their soutce code and I did not read the source code? >> >> >>Uri
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