Author: Uri Blass
Date: 09:31:47 02/21/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 21, 2005 at 12:07:34, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >On February 21, 2005 at 11:52:14, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On February 21, 2005 at 11:24:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >> >>>On February 21, 2005 at 03:59:21, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On February 20, 2005 at 19:33:01, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 12:38:01, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 11:07:06, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 10:40:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 20:38:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 19:32:33, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 18:46:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Note that I never claimed that a good book cannot help an engine to win a >>>>>>>>>>>>tournament. >>>>>>>>>>>>If people understood it from me then I did a bad explaining job. >>>>>>>>>>>>I will try to do better explaining job in this post. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>??????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to (*)(**) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I said that I consider book as unimportant and I said that an engine that is >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I agree with the definition but the question what is unimportant is also a >>>>>>>>>>question of opinion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>reasons for me to consider book as unimportasnt are the following: >>>>>>>>>>1)not considering the target of winning tournament as an important target >>>>>>>>>>2)thinking that it is possible to improve engine instead of book and get better >>>>>>>>>>results >>>>>>>>>>If shredder9 with book is weaker than some future Shredder19 without book then >>>>>>>>>>it is going to show point 2. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(1) Impossible that it happens simply. Shredder is always acompanied by its >>>>>>>>>tuned and tested book in official Tournaments. In the particular case of >>>>>>>>>Shredder, both the engine and the book have been improved and they also >>>>>>>>>constituted a pretty well tested piece of software. The Tournaments have showed >>>>>>>>>that the book of Mr. Sandro Necchi has also helped. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Saying that the Shredder´s book has been unimportant is not true ( I would not >>>>>>>>>like to use "a big lie" since it is rude term). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I agree that shredder will always play in tournament by book. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The point is that even if it has 50% chances to win without book then it is >>>>>>>>still better to have 90% chances to win with book. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I agree that we will not be able to test shredder19 without book against >>>>>>>>shredder9 with book so we will unable to test if shredder19 without book is >>>>>>>>stronger. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>(1) Contradiction: "I did not claim that a book cannot help an engine...." .... >>>>>>>>>>>"I consider the book as unimportant..." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>(**) read the meaning of unimportant(*). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>strong enough has good chances to win even with 1.h3 but >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>(2) I have also suggested that 1. f3!! and 2. g4!! would be a lot better. :)) >>>>>>>>>>>The tops engine are already prepared for all those idiot moves including 1. h3? >>>>>>>>>>>and 1. f3?? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>This is only an example. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The idea is clear. >>>>>>>>>>There are many ways to get the opponent out of book without lost position and it >>>>>>>>>>is not hard to find some line to take the opponent out of book with equality or >>>>>>>>>>almost equality with white. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(2) An equal position may not be good for a chess program but great for other >>>>>>>>>chess program. An equal position can already mean a lost game for an engine. >>>>>>>>>That is one of the advantages of a tuned book: The engine that can get positions >>>>>>>>>where it will behave OK and the opponent will "feel" bad, it means the opponents >>>>>>>>>will make some mistake. The positions "equal" in chess is a term very relative: >>>>>>>>>If Engine A gets a position where it has a clear plan but the Engine B doesnt >>>>>>>>>know what to do, you know what the result will be. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Of course but in order to know that the opponent will "feel" bad you need to >>>>>>>>know the opponent. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If some strong engine is hidden by it's author and made a very big improvement >>>>>>>>then you cannot know it's weaknesses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>If you also give such an advantage with initial idiot moves such as 1. h3?!, of >>>>>>>>>course, Shredder will smash anything. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>(5) Shredder, Junior and Fritz han showed this is not true over the latest years >>>>>>>>>>>in Official Tournaments. All of them use strong book tuned by hand. I have not >>>>>>>>>>>seen the first case from a no-book engine winning an official Tournament. Where >>>>>>>>>>>are the facts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>AO >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>>>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments. (******) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Incorrect: Unless you call Blasstradamus, you cannot base your suppositions on >>>>>>>>>things that have never happened. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I do not see what incorrect in what I said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Go to (******) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>>>> >>>>>>Ok >>>>>> >>>>>>I understand what you mean. >>>>>>I wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>"The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments." >>>>>> >>>>>>It should be >>>>>>"the facts are that book was an important factor in tournaments in the past and >>>>>>the difference between engines was not very big." >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I guess that you also agree that a book can be a decisive factor in winning >>>>>>>>tournament when the difference between engines is not very big. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Mr. Blass, must I repeat what I have said about one hundred times?!!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I guess that even in case that there is going to be a big difference in playing >>>>>>>>strength between engines the best engine will use book because it is better to >>>>>>>>be sure in 99% in victory then to be sure in 60% in victory so not using book by >>>>>>>>the winner is something that I do not expect to happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You have not discovered anything new that what I have been telling for over 40 >>>>>>>messages. A tune and tested book is important and it can help the engine to wint >>>>>>>games. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes >>>>>>I did not claim that I discovered something new. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For the fith time: In my private tests from the 100% of the games won by Diep, >>>>>>>30% was a direct win from the book. Why dont you read? (Lack of comprension?!!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>More ????!!!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Well, you said a book is _unimportant_ (*). Now you say, it is important. What >>>>>>>is your position then? I put here some symbols ?!!!***???!!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>>> >>>>>>I say that it is dependent on what you want. >>>>>>Book is important to achieve what is significant for you. >>>>>>Book is not important to achieve what is more significant for me that is >>>>>>improving the engine. >>>>> >>>>>I like to win and you dont plan to win: What is the sense to participate in >>>>>Tournament if you dont plant to win? >>>> >>>> >>>>Many programmers played in the tournament when they did not plan to win it. >>>> >>>>I am sure that programmer of arasan knew that he had no practical chances to win >>>>the tournament and many engines that are weaker than arasan also played >>>>in CCT7(one engine that movei played against it in the first round searched 6 >>>>plies and came without book). >>>> >>>>It is possible that I will not participate in the future in tournaments. >>>>I did not decide about it and I see no need to give final decision about it but >>>>your question should be a question for most programmers and not only for me. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I believe that at the level of movei winning CCT7 was practically impossible >>>>>>task for it and the best it could do with better book is maybe second place. >>>>>> >>>>>>If somebody volunteer to try to help it to get better place in tournaments in >>>>>>the future then (s)he is welcome to try to do it but I do not plan to spend much >>>>>>time about it. >>>>> >>>>>After all your declarations, you have sowed your own tomb. Well, You had already >>>>>been buried yourself several years ago. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I believe that other programmers also in most cases do not spend time on editing >>>>>>the book manually and let another person to do the work if they are lucky to >>>>>>find somebody to help them. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Good Authors know what a book can mean. You will learn that in 20 years perhaps. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>They do not say that book is unimportant(and I guess it was an unsuccesful >>>>>>sentence by me that may cause me problems to find volunteers for that task) but >>>>>>they also do not spend much time about book. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I doubt that you find people willing to help you after you have pointed out >>>>>here. I mean people who do a hard work with book: tuning by hand, testing every >>>>>variation, etc. Anybody can generate a random books, only some persons have the >>>>>patience to do a hard work. Well, see you in 20 years! >>>> >>>>I certainly do not expect help from you. >>>>It seems that after what I posted in the past you hate me regardless of what I >>>>do. >>> >>>I dont hate anybody. In my country, we are not used to hating people. This is a >>>Forum and the debate are less or more difficult. The language is just a problem. >>>English is not my native language and neither yours. >>> >>>However, sentences such as "book is unimportant" can be rude for the work done >>>by fun of a few people who is willing to help some chess author. >> >>I am sorry if you felt bad with my sentences >>I will not repeat them. >> >>The reason that I got the feeling that you hate me is that you posted against me >>when I said nothing about the importance of the book but only asked a question. >> >>the first post that is relevant for the last discussion is >> >>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?411459 >> >>Uri > >Look thw other messages where the debate turned more and more difficult. This >link was not the initial one. Just a message among the messages of the debate >and discussion of the last 7 days. > >Feeling is just a human thing. This is a Forum and the discussion can turn more >or less hard and difficult. You will never face an easy debate where the >position are contrary. That is a fantasy. It doesnt mean you must hate people. > >You pointed out a bunch of declarations, I said why they are not perfect as you >can think. This is a debate, this a Forum....... If you think, this is hate, >God?!!!!!! > >AO. No I do not say that if you think this is hate. The problem is when you criticize me in a discussion about something that I do not say and only said in the past. I did not repeat saying that book is unimportant. When I said something about it I only responded to your posts. I said that results of movei do not prove the importance of book. It does not mean that book is not important and I only said that they do not prove it in response to your post. I still think that zappa has good chances to beat Movei even with Movei's book when both engines use the hardware of the tournament. I later tried to explain what I meant by saying that the book is unimportant because it seems that you took it personally and it was not my intention. Uri
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