Author: Arturo Ochoa
Date: 09:07:34 02/21/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 21, 2005 at 11:52:14, Uri Blass wrote: >On February 21, 2005 at 11:24:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote: > >>On February 21, 2005 at 03:59:21, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On February 20, 2005 at 19:33:01, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>> >>>>On February 20, 2005 at 12:38:01, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 11:07:06, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 10:40:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 20:38:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 19:32:33, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 18:46:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Note that I never claimed that a good book cannot help an engine to win a >>>>>>>>>>>tournament. >>>>>>>>>>>If people understood it from me then I did a bad explaining job. >>>>>>>>>>>I will try to do better explaining job in this post. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>??????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to (*)(**) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I said that I consider book as unimportant and I said that an engine that is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I agree with the definition but the question what is unimportant is also a >>>>>>>>>question of opinion >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>reasons for me to consider book as unimportasnt are the following: >>>>>>>>>1)not considering the target of winning tournament as an important target >>>>>>>>>2)thinking that it is possible to improve engine instead of book and get better >>>>>>>>>results >>>>>>>>>If shredder9 with book is weaker than some future Shredder19 without book then >>>>>>>>>it is going to show point 2. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>(1) Impossible that it happens simply. Shredder is always acompanied by its >>>>>>>>tuned and tested book in official Tournaments. In the particular case of >>>>>>>>Shredder, both the engine and the book have been improved and they also >>>>>>>>constituted a pretty well tested piece of software. The Tournaments have showed >>>>>>>>that the book of Mr. Sandro Necchi has also helped. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Saying that the Shredder´s book has been unimportant is not true ( I would not >>>>>>>>like to use "a big lie" since it is rude term). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I agree that shredder will always play in tournament by book. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The point is that even if it has 50% chances to win without book then it is >>>>>>>still better to have 90% chances to win with book. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I agree that we will not be able to test shredder19 without book against >>>>>>>shredder9 with book so we will unable to test if shredder19 without book is >>>>>>>stronger. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(1) Contradiction: "I did not claim that a book cannot help an engine...." .... >>>>>>>>>>"I consider the book as unimportant..." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(**) read the meaning of unimportant(*). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>strong enough has good chances to win even with 1.h3 but >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(2) I have also suggested that 1. f3!! and 2. g4!! would be a lot better. :)) >>>>>>>>>>The tops engine are already prepared for all those idiot moves including 1. h3? >>>>>>>>>>and 1. f3?? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>This is only an example. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The idea is clear. >>>>>>>>>There are many ways to get the opponent out of book without lost position and it >>>>>>>>>is not hard to find some line to take the opponent out of book with equality or >>>>>>>>>almost equality with white. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>(2) An equal position may not be good for a chess program but great for other >>>>>>>>chess program. An equal position can already mean a lost game for an engine. >>>>>>>>That is one of the advantages of a tuned book: The engine that can get positions >>>>>>>>where it will behave OK and the opponent will "feel" bad, it means the opponents >>>>>>>>will make some mistake. The positions "equal" in chess is a term very relative: >>>>>>>>If Engine A gets a position where it has a clear plan but the Engine B doesnt >>>>>>>>know what to do, you know what the result will be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Of course but in order to know that the opponent will "feel" bad you need to >>>>>>>know the opponent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If some strong engine is hidden by it's author and made a very big improvement >>>>>>>then you cannot know it's weaknesses. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If you also give such an advantage with initial idiot moves such as 1. h3?!, of >>>>>>>>course, Shredder will smash anything. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(5) Shredder, Junior and Fritz han showed this is not true over the latest years >>>>>>>>>>in Official Tournaments. All of them use strong book tuned by hand. I have not >>>>>>>>>>seen the first case from a no-book engine winning an official Tournament. Where >>>>>>>>>>are the facts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>AO >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments. (******) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Incorrect: Unless you call Blasstradamus, you cannot base your suppositions on >>>>>>>>things that have never happened. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do not see what incorrect in what I said. >>>>>> >>>>>>Go to (******) >>>>>> >>>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>>> >>>>>Ok >>>>> >>>>>I understand what you mean. >>>>>I wrote: >>>>> >>>>>"The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments." >>>>> >>>>>It should be >>>>>"the facts are that book was an important factor in tournaments in the past and >>>>>the difference between engines was not very big." >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I guess that you also agree that a book can be a decisive factor in winning >>>>>>>tournament when the difference between engines is not very big. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Mr. Blass, must I repeat what I have said about one hundred times?!!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I guess that even in case that there is going to be a big difference in playing >>>>>>>strength between engines the best engine will use book because it is better to >>>>>>>be sure in 99% in victory then to be sure in 60% in victory so not using book by >>>>>>>the winner is something that I do not expect to happen. >>>>>> >>>>>>You have not discovered anything new that what I have been telling for over 40 >>>>>>messages. A tune and tested book is important and it can help the engine to wint >>>>>>games. >>>>> >>>>>Yes >>>>>I did not claim that I discovered something new. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>For the fith time: In my private tests from the 100% of the games won by Diep, >>>>>>30% was a direct win from the book. Why dont you read? (Lack of comprension?!!) >>>>>> >>>>>>More ????!!!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Well, you said a book is _unimportant_ (*). Now you say, it is important. What >>>>>>is your position then? I put here some symbols ?!!!***???!!!! >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>> >>>>>I say that it is dependent on what you want. >>>>>Book is important to achieve what is significant for you. >>>>>Book is not important to achieve what is more significant for me that is >>>>>improving the engine. >>>> >>>>I like to win and you dont plan to win: What is the sense to participate in >>>>Tournament if you dont plant to win? >>> >>> >>>Many programmers played in the tournament when they did not plan to win it. >>> >>>I am sure that programmer of arasan knew that he had no practical chances to win >>>the tournament and many engines that are weaker than arasan also played >>>in CCT7(one engine that movei played against it in the first round searched 6 >>>plies and came without book). >>> >>>It is possible that I will not participate in the future in tournaments. >>>I did not decide about it and I see no need to give final decision about it but >>>your question should be a question for most programmers and not only for me. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>I believe that at the level of movei winning CCT7 was practically impossible >>>>>task for it and the best it could do with better book is maybe second place. >>>>> >>>>>If somebody volunteer to try to help it to get better place in tournaments in >>>>>the future then (s)he is welcome to try to do it but I do not plan to spend much >>>>>time about it. >>>> >>>>After all your declarations, you have sowed your own tomb. Well, You had already >>>>been buried yourself several years ago. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>I believe that other programmers also in most cases do not spend time on editing >>>>>the book manually and let another person to do the work if they are lucky to >>>>>find somebody to help them. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Good Authors know what a book can mean. You will learn that in 20 years perhaps. >>>> >>>> >>>>>They do not say that book is unimportant(and I guess it was an unsuccesful >>>>>sentence by me that may cause me problems to find volunteers for that task) but >>>>>they also do not spend much time about book. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I doubt that you find people willing to help you after you have pointed out >>>>here. I mean people who do a hard work with book: tuning by hand, testing every >>>>variation, etc. Anybody can generate a random books, only some persons have the >>>>patience to do a hard work. Well, see you in 20 years! >>> >>>I certainly do not expect help from you. >>>It seems that after what I posted in the past you hate me regardless of what I >>>do. >> >>I dont hate anybody. In my country, we are not used to hating people. This is a >>Forum and the debate are less or more difficult. The language is just a problem. >>English is not my native language and neither yours. >> >>However, sentences such as "book is unimportant" can be rude for the work done >>by fun of a few people who is willing to help some chess author. > >I am sorry if you felt bad with my sentences >I will not repeat them. > >The reason that I got the feeling that you hate me is that you posted against me >when I said nothing about the importance of the book but only asked a question. > >the first post that is relevant for the last discussion is > >http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?411459 > >Uri Look thw other messages where the debate turned more and more difficult. This link was not the initial one. Just a message among the messages of the debate and discussion of the last 7 days. Feeling is just a human thing. This is a Forum and the discussion can turn more or less hard and difficult. You will never face an easy debate where the position are contrary. That is a fantasy. It doesnt mean you must hate people. You pointed out a bunch of declarations, I said why they are not perfect as you can think. This is a debate, this a Forum....... If you think, this is hate, God?!!!!!! AO.
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