Author: Uri Blass
Date: 08:52:14 02/21/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 21, 2005 at 11:24:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >On February 21, 2005 at 03:59:21, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On February 20, 2005 at 19:33:01, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >> >>>On February 20, 2005 at 12:38:01, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On February 20, 2005 at 11:07:06, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 10:40:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 20:38:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 19:32:33, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 18:46:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Note that I never claimed that a good book cannot help an engine to win a >>>>>>>>>>tournament. >>>>>>>>>>If people understood it from me then I did a bad explaining job. >>>>>>>>>>I will try to do better explaining job in this post. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>??????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to (*)(**) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I said that I consider book as unimportant and I said that an engine that is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I agree with the definition but the question what is unimportant is also a >>>>>>>>question of opinion >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>reasons for me to consider book as unimportasnt are the following: >>>>>>>>1)not considering the target of winning tournament as an important target >>>>>>>>2)thinking that it is possible to improve engine instead of book and get better >>>>>>>>results >>>>>>>>If shredder9 with book is weaker than some future Shredder19 without book then >>>>>>>>it is going to show point 2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(1) Impossible that it happens simply. Shredder is always acompanied by its >>>>>>>tuned and tested book in official Tournaments. In the particular case of >>>>>>>Shredder, both the engine and the book have been improved and they also >>>>>>>constituted a pretty well tested piece of software. The Tournaments have showed >>>>>>>that the book of Mr. Sandro Necchi has also helped. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Saying that the Shredder´s book has been unimportant is not true ( I would not >>>>>>>like to use "a big lie" since it is rude term). >>>>>> >>>>>>I agree that shredder will always play in tournament by book. >>>>>> >>>>>>The point is that even if it has 50% chances to win without book then it is >>>>>>still better to have 90% chances to win with book. >>>>>> >>>>>>I agree that we will not be able to test shredder19 without book against >>>>>>shredder9 with book so we will unable to test if shredder19 without book is >>>>>>stronger. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(1) Contradiction: "I did not claim that a book cannot help an engine...." .... >>>>>>>>>"I consider the book as unimportant..." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(**) read the meaning of unimportant(*). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>strong enough has good chances to win even with 1.h3 but >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(2) I have also suggested that 1. f3!! and 2. g4!! would be a lot better. :)) >>>>>>>>>The tops engine are already prepared for all those idiot moves including 1. h3? >>>>>>>>>and 1. f3?? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This is only an example. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The idea is clear. >>>>>>>>There are many ways to get the opponent out of book without lost position and it >>>>>>>>is not hard to find some line to take the opponent out of book with equality or >>>>>>>>almost equality with white. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(2) An equal position may not be good for a chess program but great for other >>>>>>>chess program. An equal position can already mean a lost game for an engine. >>>>>>>That is one of the advantages of a tuned book: The engine that can get positions >>>>>>>where it will behave OK and the opponent will "feel" bad, it means the opponents >>>>>>>will make some mistake. The positions "equal" in chess is a term very relative: >>>>>>>If Engine A gets a position where it has a clear plan but the Engine B doesnt >>>>>>>know what to do, you know what the result will be. >>>>>> >>>>>>Of course but in order to know that the opponent will "feel" bad you need to >>>>>>know the opponent. >>>>>> >>>>>>If some strong engine is hidden by it's author and made a very big improvement >>>>>>then you cannot know it's weaknesses. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If you also give such an advantage with initial idiot moves such as 1. h3?!, of >>>>>>>course, Shredder will smash anything. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(5) Shredder, Junior and Fritz han showed this is not true over the latest years >>>>>>>>>in Official Tournaments. All of them use strong book tuned by hand. I have not >>>>>>>>>seen the first case from a no-book engine winning an official Tournament. Where >>>>>>>>>are the facts? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>AO >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments. (******) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Incorrect: Unless you call Blasstradamus, you cannot base your suppositions on >>>>>>>things that have never happened. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I do not see what incorrect in what I said. >>>>> >>>>>Go to (******) >>>>> >>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>> >>>>Ok >>>> >>>>I understand what you mean. >>>>I wrote: >>>> >>>>"The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments." >>>> >>>>It should be >>>>"the facts are that book was an important factor in tournaments in the past and >>>>the difference between engines was not very big." >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I guess that you also agree that a book can be a decisive factor in winning >>>>>>tournament when the difference between engines is not very big. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Mr. Blass, must I repeat what I have said about one hundred times?!!!! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I guess that even in case that there is going to be a big difference in playing >>>>>>strength between engines the best engine will use book because it is better to >>>>>>be sure in 99% in victory then to be sure in 60% in victory so not using book by >>>>>>the winner is something that I do not expect to happen. >>>>> >>>>>You have not discovered anything new that what I have been telling for over 40 >>>>>messages. A tune and tested book is important and it can help the engine to wint >>>>>games. >>>> >>>>Yes >>>>I did not claim that I discovered something new. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>For the fith time: In my private tests from the 100% of the games won by Diep, >>>>>30% was a direct win from the book. Why dont you read? (Lack of comprension?!!) >>>>> >>>>>More ????!!!!! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Well, you said a book is _unimportant_ (*). Now you say, it is important. What >>>>>is your position then? I put here some symbols ?!!!***???!!!! >>>>> >>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>> >>>>I say that it is dependent on what you want. >>>>Book is important to achieve what is significant for you. >>>>Book is not important to achieve what is more significant for me that is >>>>improving the engine. >>> >>>I like to win and you dont plan to win: What is the sense to participate in >>>Tournament if you dont plant to win? >> >> >>Many programmers played in the tournament when they did not plan to win it. >> >>I am sure that programmer of arasan knew that he had no practical chances to win >>the tournament and many engines that are weaker than arasan also played >>in CCT7(one engine that movei played against it in the first round searched 6 >>plies and came without book). >> >>It is possible that I will not participate in the future in tournaments. >>I did not decide about it and I see no need to give final decision about it but >>your question should be a question for most programmers and not only for me. >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I believe that at the level of movei winning CCT7 was practically impossible >>>>task for it and the best it could do with better book is maybe second place. >>>> >>>>If somebody volunteer to try to help it to get better place in tournaments in >>>>the future then (s)he is welcome to try to do it but I do not plan to spend much >>>>time about it. >>> >>>After all your declarations, you have sowed your own tomb. Well, You had already >>>been buried yourself several years ago. >>> >>>> >>>>I believe that other programmers also in most cases do not spend time on editing >>>>the book manually and let another person to do the work if they are lucky to >>>>find somebody to help them. >>>> >>> >>>Good Authors know what a book can mean. You will learn that in 20 years perhaps. >>> >>> >>>>They do not say that book is unimportant(and I guess it was an unsuccesful >>>>sentence by me that may cause me problems to find volunteers for that task) but >>>>they also do not spend much time about book. >>>> >>> >>>I doubt that you find people willing to help you after you have pointed out >>>here. I mean people who do a hard work with book: tuning by hand, testing every >>>variation, etc. Anybody can generate a random books, only some persons have the >>>patience to do a hard work. Well, see you in 20 years! >> >>I certainly do not expect help from you. >>It seems that after what I posted in the past you hate me regardless of what I >>do. > >I dont hate anybody. In my country, we are not used to hating people. This is a >Forum and the debate are less or more difficult. The language is just a problem. >English is not my native language and neither yours. > >However, sentences such as "book is unimportant" can be rude for the work done >by fun of a few people who is willing to help some chess author. I am sorry if you felt bad with my sentences I will not repeat them. The reason that I got the feeling that you hate me is that you posted against me when I said nothing about the importance of the book but only asked a question. the first post that is relevant for the last discussion is http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?411459 Uri
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