Author: Arturo Ochoa
Date: 10:08:17 02/21/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 21, 2005 at 12:47:40, Uri Blass wrote: >On February 21, 2005 at 12:24:07, Arturo Ochoa wrote: > >>On February 21, 2005 at 11:52:14, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On February 21, 2005 at 11:24:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>> >>>>On February 21, 2005 at 03:59:21, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 19:33:01, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 12:38:01, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 11:07:06, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 20, 2005 at 10:40:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 20:38:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 19:32:33, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 18:46:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Note that I never claimed that a good book cannot help an engine to win a >>>>>>>>>>>>>tournament. >>>>>>>>>>>>>If people understood it from me then I did a bad explaining job. >>>>>>>>>>>>>I will try to do better explaining job in this post. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>??????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to (*)(**) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>I said that I consider book as unimportant and I said that an engine that is >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I agree with the definition but the question what is unimportant is also a >>>>>>>>>>>question of opinion >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>reasons for me to consider book as unimportasnt are the following: >>>>>>>>>>>1)not considering the target of winning tournament as an important target >>>>>>>>>>>2)thinking that it is possible to improve engine instead of book and get better >>>>>>>>>>>results >>>>>>>>>>>If shredder9 with book is weaker than some future Shredder19 without book then >>>>>>>>>>>it is going to show point 2. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(1) Impossible that it happens simply. Shredder is always acompanied by its >>>>>>>>>>tuned and tested book in official Tournaments. In the particular case of >>>>>>>>>>Shredder, both the engine and the book have been improved and they also >>>>>>>>>>constituted a pretty well tested piece of software. The Tournaments have showed >>>>>>>>>>that the book of Mr. Sandro Necchi has also helped. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Saying that the Shredder´s book has been unimportant is not true ( I would not >>>>>>>>>>like to use "a big lie" since it is rude term). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I agree that shredder will always play in tournament by book. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The point is that even if it has 50% chances to win without book then it is >>>>>>>>>still better to have 90% chances to win with book. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I agree that we will not be able to test shredder19 without book against >>>>>>>>>shredder9 with book so we will unable to test if shredder19 without book is >>>>>>>>>stronger. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>(1) Contradiction: "I did not claim that a book cannot help an engine...." .... >>>>>>>>>>>>"I consider the book as unimportant..." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>(**) read the meaning of unimportant(*). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>strong enough has good chances to win even with 1.h3 but >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>(2) I have also suggested that 1. f3!! and 2. g4!! would be a lot better. :)) >>>>>>>>>>>>The tops engine are already prepared for all those idiot moves including 1. h3? >>>>>>>>>>>>and 1. f3?? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>This is only an example. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>The idea is clear. >>>>>>>>>>>There are many ways to get the opponent out of book without lost position and it >>>>>>>>>>>is not hard to find some line to take the opponent out of book with equality or >>>>>>>>>>>almost equality with white. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>(2) An equal position may not be good for a chess program but great for other >>>>>>>>>>chess program. An equal position can already mean a lost game for an engine. >>>>>>>>>>That is one of the advantages of a tuned book: The engine that can get positions >>>>>>>>>>where it will behave OK and the opponent will "feel" bad, it means the opponents >>>>>>>>>>will make some mistake. The positions "equal" in chess is a term very relative: >>>>>>>>>>If Engine A gets a position where it has a clear plan but the Engine B doesnt >>>>>>>>>>know what to do, you know what the result will be. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Of course but in order to know that the opponent will "feel" bad you need to >>>>>>>>>know the opponent. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>If some strong engine is hidden by it's author and made a very big improvement >>>>>>>>>then you cannot know it's weaknesses. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>If you also give such an advantage with initial idiot moves such as 1. h3?!, of >>>>>>>>>>course, Shredder will smash anything. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>(5) Shredder, Junior and Fritz han showed this is not true over the latest years >>>>>>>>>>>>in Official Tournaments. All of them use strong book tuned by hand. I have not >>>>>>>>>>>>seen the first case from a no-book engine winning an official Tournament. Where >>>>>>>>>>>>are the facts? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>AO >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>>>>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments. (******) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Incorrect: Unless you call Blasstradamus, you cannot base your suppositions on >>>>>>>>>>things that have never happened. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>>>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I do not see what incorrect in what I said. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Go to (******) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ok >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I understand what you mean. >>>>>>>I wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It should be >>>>>>>"the facts are that book was an important factor in tournaments in the past and >>>>>>>the difference between engines was not very big." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I guess that you also agree that a book can be a decisive factor in winning >>>>>>>>>tournament when the difference between engines is not very big. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Mr. Blass, must I repeat what I have said about one hundred times?!!!! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I guess that even in case that there is going to be a big difference in playing >>>>>>>>>strength between engines the best engine will use book because it is better to >>>>>>>>>be sure in 99% in victory then to be sure in 60% in victory so not using book by >>>>>>>>>the winner is something that I do not expect to happen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You have not discovered anything new that what I have been telling for over 40 >>>>>>>>messages. A tune and tested book is important and it can help the engine to wint >>>>>>>>games. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yes >>>>>>>I did not claim that I discovered something new. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>For the fith time: In my private tests from the 100% of the games won by Diep, >>>>>>>>30% was a direct win from the book. Why dont you read? (Lack of comprension?!!) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>More ????!!!!! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Well, you said a book is _unimportant_ (*). Now you say, it is important. What >>>>>>>>is your position then? I put here some symbols ?!!!***???!!!! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I say that it is dependent on what you want. >>>>>>>Book is important to achieve what is significant for you. >>>>>>>Book is not important to achieve what is more significant for me that is >>>>>>>improving the engine. >>>>>> >>>>>>I like to win and you dont plan to win: What is the sense to participate in >>>>>>Tournament if you dont plant to win? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Many programmers played in the tournament when they did not plan to win it. >>>>> >>>>>I am sure that programmer of arasan knew that he had no practical chances to win >>>>>the tournament and many engines that are weaker than arasan also played >>>>>in CCT7(one engine that movei played against it in the first round searched 6 >>>>>plies and came without book). >>>>> >>>>>It is possible that I will not participate in the future in tournaments. >>>>>I did not decide about it and I see no need to give final decision about it but >>>>>your question should be a question for most programmers and not only for me. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I believe that at the level of movei winning CCT7 was practically impossible >>>>>>>task for it and the best it could do with better book is maybe second place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If somebody volunteer to try to help it to get better place in tournaments in >>>>>>>the future then (s)he is welcome to try to do it but I do not plan to spend much >>>>>>>time about it. >>>>>> >>>>>>After all your declarations, you have sowed your own tomb. Well, You had already >>>>>>been buried yourself several years ago. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I believe that other programmers also in most cases do not spend time on editing >>>>>>>the book manually and let another person to do the work if they are lucky to >>>>>>>find somebody to help them. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Good Authors know what a book can mean. You will learn that in 20 years perhaps. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>They do not say that book is unimportant(and I guess it was an unsuccesful >>>>>>>sentence by me that may cause me problems to find volunteers for that task) but >>>>>>>they also do not spend much time about book. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I doubt that you find people willing to help you after you have pointed out >>>>>>here. I mean people who do a hard work with book: tuning by hand, testing every >>>>>>variation, etc. Anybody can generate a random books, only some persons have the >>>>>>patience to do a hard work. Well, see you in 20 years! >>>>> >>>>>I certainly do not expect help from you. >>>>>It seems that after what I posted in the past you hate me regardless of what I >>>>>do. >>>> >>>>I dont hate anybody. In my country, we are not used to hating people. This is a >>>>Forum and the debate are less or more difficult. The language is just a problem. >>>>English is not my native language and neither yours. >>>> >>>>However, sentences such as "book is unimportant" can be rude for the work done >>>>by fun of a few people who is willing to help some chess author. >>> >>>I am sorry if you felt bad with my sentences >>>I will not repeat them. >>> >>>The reason that I got the feeling that you hate me is that you posted against me >>>when I said nothing about the importance of the book but only asked a question. >>> >>>the first post that is relevant for the last discussion is >>> >>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?411459 >>> >>>Uri >> >>By the way, the word "hate"has other connotation here. I will accept what you >>perceived but no the fact that "hate" is a strong word. > > >It is possible that I translated it wrong. >I will not use it again in this discussion. > >My impression was that you are against me because of things that I said in the >past and not only against my opinion. > >I used the word "hate" to describe it. > >Uri I am against the arguments that understimate the hobby done by the people. You cannot deny that you used _unimportant_. I have already said what my point of view about this word. Feeling "hated", it might be interpreted as a childish reaction. However, I have said it is just a problem regarding to the English language. Am I wrong? AO.
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