Author: Uri Blass
Date: 00:59:21 02/21/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 20, 2005 at 19:33:01, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >On February 20, 2005 at 12:38:01, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On February 20, 2005 at 11:07:06, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >> >>>On February 20, 2005 at 10:40:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On February 19, 2005 at 20:38:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 19:32:33, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 19, 2005 at 18:46:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Note that I never claimed that a good book cannot help an engine to win a >>>>>>>>tournament. >>>>>>>>If people understood it from me then I did a bad explaining job. >>>>>>>>I will try to do better explaining job in this post. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>??????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to (*)(**) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I said that I consider book as unimportant and I said that an engine that is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I agree with the definition but the question what is unimportant is also a >>>>>>question of opinion >>>>>> >>>>>>reasons for me to consider book as unimportasnt are the following: >>>>>>1)not considering the target of winning tournament as an important target >>>>>>2)thinking that it is possible to improve engine instead of book and get better >>>>>>results >>>>>>If shredder9 with book is weaker than some future Shredder19 without book then >>>>>>it is going to show point 2. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>(1) Impossible that it happens simply. Shredder is always acompanied by its >>>>>tuned and tested book in official Tournaments. In the particular case of >>>>>Shredder, both the engine and the book have been improved and they also >>>>>constituted a pretty well tested piece of software. The Tournaments have showed >>>>>that the book of Mr. Sandro Necchi has also helped. >>>>> >>>>>Saying that the Shredder´s book has been unimportant is not true ( I would not >>>>>like to use "a big lie" since it is rude term). >>>> >>>>I agree that shredder will always play in tournament by book. >>>> >>>>The point is that even if it has 50% chances to win without book then it is >>>>still better to have 90% chances to win with book. >>>> >>>>I agree that we will not be able to test shredder19 without book against >>>>shredder9 with book so we will unable to test if shredder19 without book is >>>>stronger. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>(1) Contradiction: "I did not claim that a book cannot help an engine...." .... >>>>>>>"I consider the book as unimportant..." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(**) read the meaning of unimportant(*). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>strong enough has good chances to win even with 1.h3 but >>>>>>> >>>>>>>(2) I have also suggested that 1. f3!! and 2. g4!! would be a lot better. :)) >>>>>>>The tops engine are already prepared for all those idiot moves including 1. h3? >>>>>>>and 1. f3?? >>>>>> >>>>>>This is only an example. >>>>>> >>>>>>The idea is clear. >>>>>>There are many ways to get the opponent out of book without lost position and it >>>>>>is not hard to find some line to take the opponent out of book with equality or >>>>>>almost equality with white. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>(2) An equal position may not be good for a chess program but great for other >>>>>chess program. An equal position can already mean a lost game for an engine. >>>>>That is one of the advantages of a tuned book: The engine that can get positions >>>>>where it will behave OK and the opponent will "feel" bad, it means the opponents >>>>>will make some mistake. The positions "equal" in chess is a term very relative: >>>>>If Engine A gets a position where it has a clear plan but the Engine B doesnt >>>>>know what to do, you know what the result will be. >>>> >>>>Of course but in order to know that the opponent will "feel" bad you need to >>>>know the opponent. >>>> >>>>If some strong engine is hidden by it's author and made a very big improvement >>>>then you cannot know it's weaknesses. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>If you also give such an advantage with initial idiot moves such as 1. h3?!, of >>>>>course, Shredder will smash anything. >>>>> >>>>>>>(5) Shredder, Junior and Fritz han showed this is not true over the latest years >>>>>>>in Official Tournaments. All of them use strong book tuned by hand. I have not >>>>>>>seen the first case from a no-book engine winning an official Tournament. Where >>>>>>>are the facts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>AO >>>>>> >>>>>>The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>>>>>book may be important factor in winning tournaments. (******) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Incorrect: Unless you call Blasstradamus, you cannot base your suppositions on >>>>>things that have never happened. >>>>> >>>>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>>>facts = things that have really happened >>>> >>>> >>>>I do not see what incorrect in what I said. >>> >>>Go to (******) >>> >>>facts <> things that have never happened >>>facts = things that have really happened >> >>Ok >> >>I understand what you mean. >>I wrote: >> >>"The facts are that as long as the difference between engines is not very big a >>book may be important factor in winning tournaments." >> >>It should be >>"the facts are that book was an important factor in tournaments in the past and >>the difference between engines was not very big." >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>I guess that you also agree that a book can be a decisive factor in winning >>>>tournament when the difference between engines is not very big. >>>> >>> >>>Mr. Blass, must I repeat what I have said about one hundred times?!!!! >>> >>> >>>>I guess that even in case that there is going to be a big difference in playing >>>>strength between engines the best engine will use book because it is better to >>>>be sure in 99% in victory then to be sure in 60% in victory so not using book by >>>>the winner is something that I do not expect to happen. >>> >>>You have not discovered anything new that what I have been telling for over 40 >>>messages. A tune and tested book is important and it can help the engine to wint >>>games. >> >>Yes >>I did not claim that I discovered something new. >> >>> >>>For the fith time: In my private tests from the 100% of the games won by Diep, >>>30% was a direct win from the book. Why dont you read? (Lack of comprension?!!) >>> >>>More ????!!!!! >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>Well, you said a book is _unimportant_ (*). Now you say, it is important. What >>>is your position then? I put here some symbols ?!!!***???!!!! >>> >>>>>>>(*) unimportant = not meaning much, not having value or significance >> >>I say that it is dependent on what you want. >>Book is important to achieve what is significant for you. >>Book is not important to achieve what is more significant for me that is >>improving the engine. > >I like to win and you dont plan to win: What is the sense to participate in >Tournament if you dont plant to win? Many programmers played in the tournament when they did not plan to win it. I am sure that programmer of arasan knew that he had no practical chances to win the tournament and many engines that are weaker than arasan also played in CCT7(one engine that movei played against it in the first round searched 6 plies and came without book). It is possible that I will not participate in the future in tournaments. I did not decide about it and I see no need to give final decision about it but your question should be a question for most programmers and not only for me. > > >> >>I believe that at the level of movei winning CCT7 was practically impossible >>task for it and the best it could do with better book is maybe second place. >> >>If somebody volunteer to try to help it to get better place in tournaments in >>the future then (s)he is welcome to try to do it but I do not plan to spend much >>time about it. > >After all your declarations, you have sowed your own tomb. Well, You had already >been buried yourself several years ago. > >> >>I believe that other programmers also in most cases do not spend time on editing >>the book manually and let another person to do the work if they are lucky to >>find somebody to help them. >> > >Good Authors know what a book can mean. You will learn that in 20 years perhaps. > > >>They do not say that book is unimportant(and I guess it was an unsuccesful >>sentence by me that may cause me problems to find volunteers for that task) but >>they also do not spend much time about book. >> > >I doubt that you find people willing to help you after you have pointed out >here. I mean people who do a hard work with book: tuning by hand, testing every >variation, etc. Anybody can generate a random books, only some persons have the >patience to do a hard work. Well, see you in 20 years! I certainly do not expect help from you. It seems that after what I posted in the past you hate me regardless of what I do. Fortunately there are other people in the world except you. Uri
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